Israel

Hello Matthias
I will try to:
The cold war: the soviet vote in 1948 for the state of Israel in the UN they help us with Arms, ammunition, immigrate Jews from Europe at that time 1948 war many kibbutz establish in those years by the socialist and communist the best example of all.
In 1953 all was turned by 180 degrees we come to the American side and the soviet to the Arabs Egypt, Syria, 1973 war is a good example for the playground of the cold war

The conflict as a narrative
I use to say to Norbert I'm Palestinian so what is Palestine?
In 1948 the British depart Palestine after 30 years and for 400 years before where the ottomans , the Arabs refuse to any distribution of the land for theme and for us 600,000 Jews in that time where live here, they declare a war on us and lost, many Arabs Palestinian where escape to Lebanon Egypt(Gaza)Jordan(west bank). They have a promise to return home in few days after a glory win on the Jews but this promise never accrue so they are still in Refugees camp till today but they don’t get the facts and its O.K for theme but they don’t ask for a peaceful solution and use terror.
Beside of those who escape others stay, they are Arabs Israelis with all the rights of citizen

So ori, i didnt get your last sentence, or i didnt know if i get in right context;

You as nation, means your nation takes responibility for jesus death?

How its looks?





To sum the realation you said Jesus was one of you, jew, wasnt the jews some of us?
Grandpas childdoctor was jews, teethdoctor, Poets were jews, real good politics were.

So jews was integrated in normal life, people didnt care so much about if doctor is jews or not - at Banksystem, and everywhere too.


So they was some of us and people in III.reich took their own neighbors,doctors,lawers and so on to scaffold, wasnt it same in personal responibility in this time?

I dont have any idea how it looks if you as nation takes responibility but here in germany it looks nearly like this:

Tv programm (sorry i dont have Tv but i try to explain)
there is not ONE day where is not on any of our 15stations is Hitler or Holocaust or Waffen SS or Guido Knopp (its somebody like Goebbels)

Radio stations
there is not any day without minimum 1h programmpart of same topic

Newspaper
there is not any week where they didnt find anything new, or not new out.



If you go to Berlin to holcaust memorial there is police which run behind you if your going to fast through, if youre talking to loud, guys its not a KZ or Museum its open air memorial - even jews protest against this behavior of german cult.

You cannot speak open about jews and holocaust in round, its like secret topic.

Wait, even the word jew or jews makes the people around you start to be afraid/quite/stop continue what they was doing before.

Its like stopping the worlds turning.


In school youre not allowed to reask something about you will only get full service information of teacher and nothing more.

Its turned to a never ending question of guiltyness which is inject to the youth, its like brainwash.


So there are 3 ways to go through:

be sheep and say Määäähhh
be quite and stop thinking about it casue you dont have anybody to talk about
be completly against cause there are a lot against



So this was discribing situation in Germany out of my personal view.

What i want to continue with resposibility was that its personal view of all and that it means often, for me with my expierience till now, responsibility is here same like walking with a stoop.




I see it like this that im not responsible for this what greatgrandpa did, im also not responsible what grandpa or daddy do.

I'm responsible for my own act - for me it means that i can have normal contact with my polish mates, and dont have borders like grandma who had to escape from westprussky passed Wilhelm Gustlov and had to grow up 2 smaller brothers.
(she never talked about escape)



But............
Damn it doesnt work, i hate british like grandpa.....
who had to collect the parts and burned humans after british attac dresden.

(btw we have every 10 years actualisation of counted death in Dresden
from 250.000 at the beginning till now 25.000 - im looking forward when it will be 0)






So what i want to say im new Human on this world, everyone is responsible only for his own mistaks even if they ends in desaster....

That i wanted to do Sar-el was not with thinking of compensation of what germans did to jews it was for personal attitude which are refferring to norberts in context to arabs



But you cut really hard topic for writing in open readable internetcommunity





Norbert, ein selbstverschuldeter Krieg mit dem Resultat der Vertreibung und Enteignung setzt du gleich dem wenn der Besitzer des grund und Bodens auf dem du dein Haus gebaut hast ihn verkauft und du wirst fortgetrieben - ein sehr heisses Eisen wie ich finde

Responsibility of West Germany as a nation:
The second nation in the world who supports Israel after USA is West Germany.
Compensation to the loss of life and property by billions, pension to the workers in company like Siemens, building submarines to the Israeli navy it's only a small example.
But you in East Germany where out of it for many years and I can understand that and even now it not easy for you.
At the last user meeting Norbert say to me: if I will come to Israel don’t take me to yadvashem I don’t want to go on my knee, I say to him if you don’t want to go we will not go but nobody ask from you to get on your knee.
If you ask me the Holocaust-Mahnmal in Berlin is a German masochism that not appropriates not the place or the big expansive area, nothing of good taste.
I hope that I contribute something to give some way of thinking before Judges someone else people use to puts stigma or stereotypes on others and sometimes it can be wrong .
Ori

please Ori, never forget that westgermany never had to pay something to allied, it get much money by the Marshallplan.

Eastgermany had to pay ALL for both Germany's to russia, lost 3/4 of industrie, lost Ingeneers, lost patents, lost maschines, lost inventions in process and so on.



Its small difference but often forget specially in W.germany and at their-cold war-friends.


Karl

Thanks to all,
or in new written form " thx @ all"

what for a great discussion, without any stupid memos from all the "old-types",
he may like the old systems....

here we can read and also a little bit understand a folk think different from his goverment, or our hards works in an other way from chairmens, and other representivs.

at this moment i miss the time for an longer answer (somebody say yeppeeah )
let me prepare some at the second part of this day.

and appreciate ori, for ya explanation, it's helpful
greetings from hisi

Hey Norbert,

du hast meinen Neid . Tolle Reise und Bericht .
Gruß nach Israel

LG
Chris

Karl
I still need to give you answer
We as a Jews ask from the Romans a death of another Jews all the surrounding of Jesus where Jews petrus
The Romans get the Christianity 300 hundred years later only then become to spread in Europe this I mean absurd.

hello everybody,
now we are at the point, which can't clearify now and later.
what we knows is, that we have in oris county the smeld-bowl of many different churches, sometimes in a count of lot layers at one place.

we can't understand this from our place here in central-europe, once more,
the most of us was'nt in israel. that means we can't talk realy about this, because we all missing all the historic facts about this. but each of us get and got in his life many different views of this area, called "near east", or west-bank, gaza-stripe, israel, palestine.... also we get and got many different meanings inside our scool-time, prepared from different blocks of political-systems.

it is so amazing, too much knowledge-bases for us, maybe the jewish self understud all right, but we can't, without training (maybe at site...)

and sorry for all grammer-fans here, typical i write my english letters all with small-types

how much we all here inside the forum? hundreds?
and ori, this we'll be all your trainees.....
take care, best whishes from
matthias

http://www.israelnet.de/nobelpreis.htm

Frieden

2003 - Shirin Ebadi
2005 - Mohamed ElBaradei
2006 - Muhammad Yunus


@Norbert: finde die Gemeinsamkeiten, nicht die Unterschiede. Das erweitert Horizonte und als vernagelt schätze ich dich nicht ein. Zugegeben, der odinäre "Muselman" aus den Nachrichten hat mitteralterliche Weltanschauungen. Man soll es nicht glauben, aber dies sind auch Minderheiten und wie immer stechen Minderheiten hervor!

So wie es nicht den Deutschen oder Europäer schlechthin gibt, gibt es auch nicht "den" Araber.

I found Niels Bohr on the list and I remembered a nice story on him its interesting Here

Karl, bei Thema Sudetendeutsche bin ich sehr dünnhäutig, da selbst betroffen.
Die habens gestohlen, geklaut, annektiert. Und ich und meine Vorfahren haben dort keineswegs einen Krieg vom Zaune gebrochen.

Dein Vergleich mit Knopp war aber nicht schlecht und auch die Zahlentrickserei zu Dresden.

Dirk, der Nobelpreis war mir grad so eingefallen, ist aber nicht repräsentativ. Als "Friedensstifter" steht da auch der Kriegstreiber Obama mit drauf und El baradei ist ja nun wirklich der Hit.
Ich meinte es bissel anders: den Nobelpreis meinetwegen in Chemie oder Physik. Da wirst Du keinen Arab finden, wenn Du weisst, wie ich es meine.

Ich habe es Ori erklärt: Es gibt in Deutschland den §130 STGB (Volksverhetzung oder auch Maulkorbparagraph genannt).
Danach sind die Tatsache und auch die Zahlen zur Judenverfolgung im 3. Reich fest fixiert und dürfen nicht in Frage gestellt werden. Sonst: prison without sun and beer.
Es ging bei der Neufassung ein Aufschrei durch die Journalistengemeinde, denn kein Journalist und auch kein Wissenschaftler darf dort noch irgendwelche Recherchen anstellen.Ist so und bleibt so!

Zu dem "Hausabriss" von Arabern durch die Israelis. Ich hab es selber nicht gesehn und weiss es nur von Ori.

Der Beduine lebt irgendwo in der Wüste mit paar Schafen und 2 Kamelen. Ein Auto hat er auch.
Er entschliesst sich, seine Papphütte in ein festes Haus zu verwandeln und beginnt zu baun. Einfach so. Natürlich kommt nun Vater Staat und schreibt ihn an: keine Baugenehmigung, keinen Statiker, es geht so nicht. Das geht so eine Weile, der Herr Beduine antwortet nicht und baut munter weiter.
Irgendwann, nach langer Zeit, kommt (angekündigt) die Planierraupe...was aber der Herr Beduine mittels Presse und vielen Tränen absolut spitzenmässig verkauft. Wer ist da nun schuld? Und...man könnte es ja mal in Deutschland versuchen.

Dirk, vernagelt bin ich nicht. Ich hab bei gewissen Dingen halt meine Sicht, die ich aber durchaus sachlich zu diskutieren bereit bin.

Yes Norbert its other topic, and generation see it maybe different even these younger poeple who are touched by this topic even hard as you - only what i want to mentioned is that our familyparts start after WWII. at 0

What we owned fit in one back and the other part was not allowed to own more than tools for eating and cloth which they had on body.
Living in wodden cottages, with rats and earthfloor like in the 16th century



Yes numbers of death in Dresden is counted like this, also that redfascists march on 13th with slogans like: 'Chruchill do it again'

so §130 Stgb is only used in one way



To come back to the topic Israel:

http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/israel1208.html




it seems that ultraorthodoxe jews are not better than arabs
The same storys i get to know from my mate who is Chaldäer

The old City of Jerusalem is a melting pot of religions and cultures and is splitted in 4 "quarters".
Look at the map

We was going in through Jaffa gate and maked a roundtrip through christian, jewish and armenien quarter. The brigde from western wall to the moslem quarter was closed. Even why, I doesn`t know.
You can see (I must search any photos) in the (in example) the christian quarter not only the typically churches and people. There are also the other christian religions there. Greece-orthodox. Russian-orthodox and so on.

And again: I`ve seen the orthodox Jews, but they don`t have done any of bad things against me ore us.

Oris daughter told us this problem with the orthodox jews on the first day and she was very staggered, that we knows this in europe.

I think, they are a little cluster of fools. Religions fanatics and this is not god in wathever of religions.

Everytime I saw this people with ear-phones and I asked Ori: Listen they all to the music of guns moses...äh roses?
He was laughing and told me, they don`t listen never any of music...

Karl
I will say this: all the German people drive Mercedes cars.
O.k. all the German people drive German cars.
But hoops I know some German drive French cars.
Stereotyp